PRIMARY SOURCE
Genocide, diplomacy and terrorism
A partial transcript the Assembly of
Turkish American Associations’
meeting with The Times editorial
board.
April 2, 2008
Leaders of an umbrella group for
Turkish-American groups stopped by The
Times recently to discuss the debate
over the Armenian genocide, Turkey's
membership in the European Union and
quashing Kurdish separatism in northern
Iraq. Below are highlights from that
meeting.
Armenian genocide
Tim Cavanaugh: The L.A. Times is
on record as supporting the term
genocide to describe whatever it is that
happened in the early part of the 20th
century. We'd be interested in hearing
your views on that.
Nurten Ural, president, Assembly of
Turkish American Associations: Sure.
Well, as far as the events of 1915, of
course we do not like to call it a
genocide because it was not a genocide.
We do agree that many Armenians died at
that time; we feel very bad about that,
but many if not more Turks and Muslims
died at the time. It was a time of war,
and in war, people die. But we really
think Turkey's position on this is —
Turkey has opened its archives, and they
say, let's get all the historians, open
up all the archives, let them dive into
the archives, research what really
happened, and everybody will accept
whatever happened.
What we don't like is having the
politicians make history or set history
when they're not that knowledgeable
about history. If the historian part
doesn't work, let's take it to court —
have the international court get
historians or whatever to see what
happened in those days. As Turkish
Americans, we're very strong on this,
that, you know, as far as the fact,
let's find out what the real facts are
instead of what we want them to be or
what others want them to be …
Cavanaugh: What kind of
discussions do you have with Armenian
groups, Armenian-American groups in
particular?
Ural: Well, we try to have
discussions … We invite them always to
debates; in fact, some of my best
friends are Armenians. Secretly, they
come to us; openly, publicly, they
refuse to come to us … To us, we have
the same culture as the Armenians: We
have the same music, we have the same
foods — we should get along … We need to
get this out into the open, we need to
get past it, we need to go on.
The thing that personally … upsets me
about this whole thing is teaching
children hatred. In this time in the
world, we don't need that. We need to
teach them peace and to get along with
each other.
Cavanaugh: They can come in and
make their own case … but just as a
question: What you hear from Armenian
groups is, you know, when you say
debate, the response to that is,
"Well, we don't ask Jewish groups to
come in and debate German groups about
whether the Holocaust happened. And why
should we be subject to that … sort of
self justification?"
Ural: It has been proven that the
Holocaust happened; it has not been
proven that the genocide has happened …
Ahmet Atahan, president , Association
of Turkish Americans of Southern
California: If you're talking in the
streets [to] an Anatolian-born Armenian
or American-born Armenian, their views
reflect, I think, a little bit different
than the political side of the whole
issue. So when you say Armenians, yes,
we do talk with Armenians. Yes, we do
work with them, we live with them, we
entertain ourselves with them. But when
it comes to the political angle, some
sectors [are] driving the whole issue.
It's different than the common Armenian
that's really thinking in a different
wavelength …
Cavanaugh: We had the
Armenian prime minister in a few
months back, and he suggested … we're
talking about Armenian Americans, right?
Because … the prime minister's discussed
the idea that this is something that
gets people exercised more in the
diaspora than it does in Armenia itself
…
Allison Block, advocacy director,
ATAA: There's no question about
that. In fact, there are more
[Armenians] living outside of Armenia
than in Armenia proper. In fact, Armenia
proper is suffering incredibly because
of this. As you are aware, the border
between Turkey and Armenia is closed
right now. It was closed for obviously a
different issue, but such political
tension has caused Turkey to keep the
border shut … Should this issue be
brought to Congress and decided upon in
Congress, that indeed the United States
recognizes this is genocide, I think
you'll find that the border will stay
shut and Armenia itself as a country
will suffer even more. Turkish
businesspeople and Armenian
businesspeople are already trying to
find ways to cooperate because … there
is no question that this is a diaspora
issue …
Cavanaugh: How does this impact
you guys as Turkish Americans? These are
international issues that are for other
people to settle, so where do you come
into this?
Ural: Personally, my niece came
from school crying — well, my brother
had to go get her from school — when an
eight-year-old girl tells my niece,
"Your grandfather killed by
grandfather," and my niece has no idea
what they're talking about … That is
what we don't like to see, when our
children [are] attacked in school for no
reason whatsoever, for a reason that
they're not even aware of … That should
not be encourage by parents; that should
not be taught by parents …
Cavanaugh: Is this formed to some
degree by the fact that the United
States at the time was among the few
patrons the Armenians had? … Is that
something that sort of structurally
works against you guys, that there is
this long history of sympathy?
Block: I wouldn't necessarily say
that's a factor.
Atahan: There's a couple details
there … Don't label the whole thing 1915
events, because when you look at
history, you have to look at … a much
wider time period to see the real
reasons and kind of why things happened
… because there are events after 1915
that Armenians don't talk about that
[are] actually against them …
You cannot just look at a narrow
timeframe. When you look at … the end of
the 18th century, you'll also see that
there are a lot of religious missions
and activities. So when you look at the
American point of view, there [are] some
religious-influenced events that show
sympathy …
Ural: Also, events such as the
Armenians taking and being allies with
the Russians fighting against the Turks.
Like I said, it's a time of war; that's
why many of them died, just as well as
Turks did. There's a lot of
complications … It's not just a thing
saying, you know, Turks killed Armenians
and it's a genocide.
Atahan: Forget old times, come to
today. When you look at Iraq today,
there are a number of deaths, a number
of people dislocated and everything.
When you look at it, so does that mean,
a few years down the road people can
easily say, "Americans caused the big
loss in Iraq, so that was a genocide"?
Or, you look at it in a more logical way
… and you look at the reasons and say …
"This is a war time, this is what
happened …" But if you put the emotions
on the table, and don't look at the
realistic end of it, of course the
picture's going to be totally different
…
Cavanaugh: Why would [Armenian
Americans] push the issue?
Ural: Land. Money.
Atahan: Not just land … but also,
if you're able to get an 18-year-old kid
today have certain feelings because he's
an Armenian. So you lose that hatred as
a tool to keep an identity, you use it
for other purposes, and you need to keep
on going for financial gain [and] for
other purposes. But is that the reality?
Who knows — that's a different issue.
With Turks, it was overcome. We had
losses; bury it, get over it …
I had my relatives die. My grandparents
and family, the whole village vanished.
But I don't feel hatred for anybody
because of it. It was a war time, it
happened, period. My life is different …
Turkey and the European Union
Cavanaugh: Turkey is perpetually
trying to get full EU membership … What
do you do on that issue?
Ural: In my personal opinion, I
think Europe needs Turkey more than
Turkey needs Europe. To me, it doesn't
matter if Turkey is a part of Europe; I
think it would be better off if it
wasn't …
Atahan: The identity situation
comes in there … We want to stay as
Turks. Yes, economically, we may do
certain things — joint venture-type
things — but identity should be kept in
a way. Even today, I can see that
between Germany and France, I mean, you
cannot just label them one country like
[the] U.S. is, between Texas and, you
know, New York. A New Yorker is a New
Yorker, a Texan is a Texan …
Cavanaugh: What's the hold up?
Why does Europe still argue over this?
And who would like to see Turkish
accession, and who wouldn't?
Block: There are several
different factors, in my opinion, that
come into play. First of all, you have
Nicolas Sarkozy, who is very much
opposed to Turkish EU accession,
primarily because in his own country,
he's seen as a nationalist and wants to
preserve the purity of the European
Union as this Christian club, et cetera.
Before Angela Merkel was elected, she
was very much opposed to full membership
for Turkey. But since she's been in
office, since her visit to Turkey, in
fact, she's come around quite a bit. The
U.K. has obviously been quite supportive
of Turkey's accession …
Many of the other acceding countries
into the European Union haven't been
held under such scrutiny as Turkey has.
For example, Turkey was one of the first
countries that they were actually
talking about having a full referendum
in every state on Turkey accession,
which would be the first time any
acceding country has been held to that
standard. So of course Turkey's going to
be upset and say, "Hey, you're holding
us to a completely different standard
..."
The bar keeps shifting for Turkey,
whereas for Croatia, for example,
they're much more, I guess, lenient in
some of those terms … When Ireland came
in as one of the members, their economy
was horrible … and still they were
allowed in. Their economy grew and
flourished, and now they're a very
functional, contributing part of the
European Union. Another issue, for
example, Poland: Many in the union were
afraid of the Polish Plumber, all of
these manual laborers coming from Poland
into the European Union and taking all
of the other Europeans' jobs. That was,
in fact, not the case. Many Europeans,
in fact, went to Poland to find work …
They fear that all of the uneducated,
unemployed laborers from Turkey will
come rushing into the European Union. In
fact, I don't think that's the case.
Turkey has an incredibly young, educated
population that would benefit Europe …
Kurdish separatism and terrorism
Block: I'm sure you're aware of
Turkish cooperation in Afghanistan, with
[the International Security Assistance
Force]. I think it's amazing that Turkey
is the only country that has controlled
the ISAF three times as a member of NATO
and is the only Muslim country that has
controlled ISAF in Afghanistan. And, you
know, Turkey is a partner in fighting
terrorism in those terms, and I guess
that's what Turkey expects from the
United States in turn.
And we've seen that more recently with
the cooperation, the military
intelligence sharing against the PKK in
northern Iraq. Another point I'd to make
about northern Iraq is, all of the
construction and development that's
going on in northern Iraq is primarily
Turkish companies — I'd say, 90% of the
construction that goes on in northern
Iraq.
Cavanaugh: When we're talking
northern Iraq, are we talking about
Kurdistan?
Ural: There is no Kurdistan.
Block: Northern Iraq — the
northern part of Iraq, which, yes, there
is a Kurdish population there, but
primarily the companies that are doing
all of the infrastructure development
there are Turkish companies …
For a while, I guess maybe it was almost
a year ago now … when the area was
starting to get less controlled because
of the PKK violence, there were numerous
Turkish truck drivers that were killed
in northern Iraq because of PKK
violence. This is before … the recent
incursions of the PKK coming into
Turkey. There was violence already in
northern Iraq against Turkish truck
drivers that were helping them, you
know, rebuild that part of the country …
Cavanaugh: If there were a
Kurdish national home developed [in
Iraq], would you guys take a position
against that?
Block: Absolutely.
Ural: Absolutely.
Block: Because of the PKK issue
precisely … Turkey has suffered under
PKK terrorism for about 20 years now,
and more than 30 to 35,000 people have
been victims of PKK terrorism within
Turkey alone … Primarily 20 years ago it
was … the PKK … carrying out attacks in
Turkey mostly to fight for rights that
they had been denied, and Turkey has
come to terms with that. Many of the
freedoms that were denied to Kurds in
the past have been granted — the ability
to speak their language, the ability to
educate in Kurdish, the ability to
broadcast in Kurdish — a lot of those
freedoms have been granted.
So now primarily the Kurdish terrorist
organizations are working in northern
Iraq and operating there because the
United States kind of protects them
there. So they come into Turkey and
carry out their attacks … primarily now
to establish their own territory. So
what that means that they're fighting
for is their own Kurdish state, which
would carve out a piece of Turkey, Iraq
and Syria, and parts of Iran.
Now you'll see that the Kurdish
terrorist organizations in northern Iraq
are starting to cooperate more with
other Kurdish terrorist organizations,
for example, in Iran, because of this
desire to carve a Kurdish nation out of
those areas.
Ural: So it would be bad, not
only for Turkey, but I think for the
United States if they did create a
Kurdistan.
